In December 2023, when South Africa accused Israel of genocide before the International Court of Justice, I thought it was wrong to do so. Israel had been attacked. Its defense was legitimate. The blood was on Hamas’s hands.
But over the last year, I have watched a slew of organizations and scholars arrive at the view that whatever Israel’s war on Gaza began as, its mass assault on Palestinian civilians fits the definition of genocidal violence. This is a view now held by Amnesty International, B’Tselem, Human Rights Watch, and the president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, among many others
One reason I have stayed away from the word genocide is that there is an imprecision at its heart. When people use the word genocide, I think they imagine something like the Holocaust: the attempted extermination of an entire people. But the legal definition of genocide encompasses much more than that.
So what is a genocide? And is this one?
Philippe Sands is a lawyer who’s worked on a number of genocide cases. He is the author of, among other books, “East West Street,” about how the idea of genocide was developed and written into international law. He is the best possible guide to the hardest possible topic.
00:00: Intro
7:50: The invention of “genocide”
23:00: The Nuremberg Trials
28:20: Critiques of “genocide”
33:16: The definition of genocide
45:00: Why it’s so hard to prove
48:00: The debate over genocide and Gaza
54:00: Genocidal intent
1:07:14 The dangers of indifference and dehumanization
1:11:15 What’s the right timescale?
1:16:44 Israel’s defense against the accusation of genocide
Read the full transcript here: https://nytimes.com/2025/08/13/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-philippe-sands.html
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Thumbnail Photo Credit: Khamis Al-Rifi/Reuters
📝 Transcript
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Top Comments
@eliranmishal8270
Not allowing foreign journalists in, tells you all you need to know.
1834 likes
@brawndo1255
Yeah let's debate about it for another five years. That'll show them.
1580 likes
@ssun190
I don't understand how not allowing a single calorie of food for 78 days to be delivered to a population that you completely surround and control all entry/exit points is not intentional starvation.
951 likes
@TuBaFl5H
What use is the term “genocide” if it is only applied retrospectively once the killing is done? While we hesitate over terminology, quibbling over timing and technicalities, the machinery of slaughter continues to grind on.
621 likes
@neriayllon7430
Debating if this is genocide is in the same line as debating if black americans face racism during the 1960s.
1033 likes
@nesser7655
Regardless of what the proper term for Israel's actions are, they are wrong.
821 likes
@TheLostSignal_0
"In a recent poll, 79% of Jewish Israelis said they were largely unmoved by reports of famine and suffering in Palestine — 23.4% were “not so troubled,” and 55.6% “not troubled at all.”
That is completely insane. They really see them as subhuman.
418 likes
@thin_individual
The fact that they had the ability to restrict food, electricity and water tells all you need to know about Israel's treatment of Gazans even prior to Oct 7. How can people not see that. That is the root cause of the problem, Ezra. Gaza was never a fully autonomous area. Knowing that, we do not justify Oct 7 and fully and uniquivocally condemn such attacks on civilians; in the same way even if one considers Oct 7 as the start of the conflict, there is no justification for what they have done and continue to do in Gaza. I never imagined insanity of this scale happening in my lifetime. Please stop debating, start acting.
102 likes
@leli5843
one day, everyone will agree that this was wrong
131 likes
@hellyeahgreg
Please interview Palestinian person from Gaza. There’s so many that need to be able to tell their story. Veterans for Gaza
534 likes
@thomaskim7299
It’s a genocide, Ezra. How is this even debatable at this point
628 likes
@arnowillekes7979
Ezra is rather late, as is the NYT…😢
361 likes
@ComboBreakerHD
before i watch this pod i just want to remind that when Raphel Lemkin defined genocide and the conventions that followed, he did so from a perspective of absolute terror, he had lost 49 relatives to the holocaust. as such, it is worded deliberately to be a very low bar. it is not genocide when everyone dies, it is genocide when they try. it is genocide when they state their intent and take the very first act towards making it happen. that's why the term you kept hearing when we first began to debate this was 'prima facie', literally, "on first impression". that bar has long since been met - Yoav Gallant on 10/8, "no food, no water, no electricity". it caught him a warrant from the ICC. it only took one day. there is a genocide in Gaza, even if we have to debate it until everyone dies. FreePalestine.
375 likes
@kateleee23
It’s been a genocide for a very long time, Ezra.
475 likes
@brandonlefton1346
:51 This reminds me of Louis CK's joke
"When did we start counting by how many 9/11s? 9/11 was only one 9/11 so I guess it wasn't that bad"